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So I got into marketing basically right out of high school, if you will.
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There's a... Wow.
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Yeah, there was like an apprenticeship that I did in an advertising agency.
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And I thought back then it was all like glossy, flashy business to be in.
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I then figured out quite fairly soon that there's more of a number side in me
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than the creative side really, which then drove me to media.
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So welcome to The Meaningful Jobs podcast season three. I'm your host Adrian.
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Today we're extremely honored to be joined by Herman Hasenstein,
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who is the Senior Head of Marketing from Puma. So how are you doing, Herman?
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I'm good. Thanks for having me, Adrian.
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So, you know, when a lot of people hear about Puma, they immediately get excited
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because it's one of the best brands there are, you know, in the world.
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And with you being in such a high level position in marketing, I guess a lot of our listeners
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are dying to hear from you about any particular marketing insights you've got.
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But before we do this, can you tell us a little bit about your career?
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So how you got into marketing and how you got to where you are?
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So I got into marketing basically right out of high school, if you will.
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Yeah, there was like an apprenticeship that I did in an advertising agency.
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And I thought back then it was all like glossy, flashy business to be in.
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And I then figured out quite fairly soon that there's more of a number side in me
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than the creative side, really, which then drove me to media planning and buying.
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And this is where I basically started my career after my university.
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And after that, it was more of trying to combine passion
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with something that will actually pay you well. Right. And that is well, media on the one hand
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side is great. But then on the other hand side, well, what clients are there out there that are
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really, really appealing to me that I can identify with and actually ultimately motivate me.
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And that was back then for the World Cup 2006, Adidas, when we did, when we had the World Cup
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in Germany and me on a media agency side, we took care of the so-called spectacular for Adidas,
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which was the goalkeeper diving over the Autobahn and the Fresco in the train station Cologne
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and all the skyscraper wrappings in Frankfurt and Hamburg. And that was really something that
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I thought, wow, like really working for a sports brand is quite something. I mean, having them as
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clients is one thing, right. But then ultimately I thought, well, being on the brand side, that's
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even probably better. So after a short stint in New York, where I had the Samsung as a client,
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again, me being in a media agency, then I had a job offer as head of media at Puma here in Boston.
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And that was would be basically taking care of all of the global media strategy and planning and
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buying as far as we could do it for actually for all the 45 entities globally. But it was more of
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a coordination and administrative role with a brand that I said, like, I think it's very,
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very exciting, always has cool stuff. It's not necessarily the market leader in all the markets,
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only a few markets, but yeah.
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That's still good enough, right?
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It's still good enough. We are a challenger brand and we like this position and see it as an
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opportunity.
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So before talking about Puma, let's just rewind a little bit to talk about your experience in
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Germany. So how different is it working in Germany compared to the US, you think?
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That's a great question. Ultimately, I would say it's not that much different. What I do
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enjoy working in the US is a positive mindset. It's a can do attitude. That doesn't really
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account for everyone and every team member, but I think it's generally something that
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is expected from you that you come to work with a positive note and yeah, you roll up your sleeves,
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you're ultimately responsible for what you're doing, and you're expected to take accountability.
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And I'm not saying that it's not necessarily like that in Germany, but I think it's not as prevalent.
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I think Germans are known for being really practical, right? So Americans obviously,
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they get this, they have this side of it, but you're saying that American mindset might be even
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more positive, right?
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That's a great point. That's a great point, Adrian. Maybe it's that Germans are practical and
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therefore sort of efficient. They would technically stop when something doesn't make sense anymore.
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And while maybe Americans are just more on the side of, well, what's the effect? And so they put
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more into it and expect a big effect to a degree where you already maybe hit a curve or saturation
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there. So that's maybe efficiency versus effectiveness, if that makes sense, right?
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So that's maybe one of the differences. I think ultimately the work-life balance is something that
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I think Americans still have to figure out versus Germans who are very, very good at protecting
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themselves, shielding them off from too much work.
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And that fits the stereotype, I guess.
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Maybe. 5 PM, I'm not going to respond to emails. I'm exaggerating to make a point, right?
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Especially when you're at a more senior level, yes, there's emails around the clock, there's calls
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around the clock, especially in the global capacity. But this is something where the weekends
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are the weekends and you don't necessarily work at the weekends. While in the US, I feel there's
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more of an expectation that, no, you're going to be available. And so you're expected to basically...
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That's a bit similar to the Asian mindset, I think. In a lot of Asian countries,
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like Hong Kong, which is where I'm from, your boss expects you to still be working on holidays,
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which I'm not saying is a good mindset, but a bit similar to American values, I think.
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I would agree with that. And I don't think... Let me put it this way. What I hear from Asia,
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and especially Korea, Japan, and then Turkey, of course, also China, has almost reached in sort of
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unhealthy areas, right? Where everyone is sort of putting themselves into a position where it's for
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the greater good and you have to deliver for the company's good. While maybe in America, it's more
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for yourself and for your personal wealth and for your personal success. So I think there is a slight
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variance to that. That being said, maybe the effect is the same. And that is that basically,
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other than just working and slipping the kids to sports and school events, et cetera,
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there's not much time for yourself. And that I feel Western European, maybe a particular German,
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people have figured out that there's always some time built in for hobbies and meeting friends,
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meeting outside at bars or beer gardens. So before you went to the States for your job
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in Puma, have you been to the States for travel? And when you had this opportunity to go to the
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States to work full-time, what's your initial reaction to it? So I think it's sort of slightly
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biased. So first of all, I'm married to an American citizen. So... Okay, that explains it then.
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I came over to Hamburg when I was working at a media agency and experienced firsthand what it was
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to live in Germany or Western Europe. And so we basically made the shift because there was parental
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leave and we weren't really jumping into the cold water. Rather than it was like, well, let's see
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if we can find jobs there. And my first experience being hired or working in the US was at a media
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agency for a client that actually was from Korea, Samsung. And that was exactly what I just described.
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So it was working around the clock. So you got up early in the morning, you weren't really sure if
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you had a conference call at 6 a.m. or not. And then at 11 p.m., 12 a.m., there were still conference
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calls. And it's of course a different time zone, but it was also the expectations from the client
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in Korea that you would of course be available as a global team. And especially if they are Samsung,
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right? You can't do something that's not up to standard with such a big client, right?
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100%. They had different standards, I would say, from the clients that I used to work for before,
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which were Western European brands. It's not just Inida's Weibo, but also Philips Consumer
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Electronics. It was sort of comparable, right? But yeah, they had entirely different expectations
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and standards, to be honest. I see. So I guess being married to an American lady would be a lot
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easier for you to then move to the States with her. So after moving to the States, how was it like
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staying with Puma and what made you stay with Puma for such a long time?
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Well, so I actually got the job at Puma in the US. So I never had the chance to compare how it was
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to work for Puma in the headquarters back in Bavaria versus here in the international market
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department. But ultimately, I really, really enjoyed, while having my first job on the brand
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side, the client side, as I call it, still from the media agency mindset, is the degree of freedom
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that we have almost like, as long as it makes sense, do your thing, right? If it's something
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that is good for the brand, then try to be scrappy about the resources that you take,
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put all in that you have for this project that you're after, and then make a proof of concept.
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And ultimately, it will roll out. You can roll out on a global level, right? So these opportunities,
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apart from my role responsibility for global media and then later global budget management,
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which was a little bit like a blueprint that I was able to maybe interpret and then
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in my own way and maybe even build out in my own way. But when it comes to, let's say,
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market analytics or consumer insights, these were things that were absolutely not thought about at
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Puma as something that's needed, neither on a local nor on a central level. And I was always
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wondering, like, this is crazy. This is something that we absolutely need to do in order to be
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somewhat future proof. And nobody said no here. It's just the mindset wasn't there that this is
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something that we really put a lot of resource in. No, it's like you go, Herman, march on,
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and let's see where it takes us. And so now we have a team taking care of it. And there's tools
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and processes in place. Now we have a new CEO, a new marketing director. And of course, their
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expectations are where is consumer insights, where is the market analytics and we are able to provide
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this now in a more or less organized manner that actually follows some certain standard procedures
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and processes and is totally up to par with the market. So I guess a lot of our listeners
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and candidates would like to understand how your work directly impacts the brand image of Puma,
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because a lot of people are fascinated by how brands can become the best in the world. Right.
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There are so many other fashion brands, so many other retail brands. What do you think is, if you
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have any, the secret sauce or secret recipe that, you know, propelled Puma to have the best friends
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in the world? And how are you involved with it? I guess it's a very good question, because I'm
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wondering, being more on the operational side of things, of course, I would question my own
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contribution to how far the brand is getting more appealing or relevant to the consumer. Right.
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I would say, though, that my job is to help decision makers and also ultimately creative
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designers to make informed decisions and not just based on gut feelings, which in the past
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turned out to be either right or wrong. For example, like a Rihanna collab back in 2014-15,
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I don't think you can really root it in consumer insights and then say, well,
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are now plateau shoes a big thing? You know, the Raleigh Creeper shoe. And even designers would
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probably not even let us help them the way in terms of, well, what does the consumer expect now?
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Well, the designer is always thinking about what consumers expect in 18 months or two years time.
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So that's some, we can argue about artificial intelligence and if this is something that can
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be extrapolated. That being said, with the brand tracker that we have in place, with the marketing
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analytics, how to plan and repeat success, there is a lot of, you call it the secret sauce. There is
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now a formula, if you will, where we can tell the countries and therefore ultimately also the other
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part of my job, the budget steering, strategic budget investment, where to strategically invest
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versus where not to invest. Do we need to have more signings with soccer players versus more
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ambassador signings, you know, or lifestyle sponsorship, et cetera. So these are things
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where I think, yeah, we can help turning the right screws, push the right buttons. And that's
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ultimately where I see my responsibility and seen ahead of market operations.
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So in terms of working for Puma, a lot of people would like obviously to work for Puma,
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but what are the core values of working for Puma and what are the kind of people you're looking for,
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you think? I think it's basically not necessarily referring to core values at Puma, more like
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the result of the core values are, well, you've got to be passionate about it.
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Yeah. You've got to be, as I said earlier, you've got to be scrappy about your resources. There's
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always too many jobs for not enough people, right? And being a challenger brand, it's not like,
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we're not Nike, we cannot hire a huge team to throw at every problem, right? So we have to,
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yeah, look at it in like a humble way and being very nimble about the way we approach it and
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how we solve it. So you have to have, you've got to be passionate about it. You have to have some
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sort of a spirit that is almost like an entrepreneurial attitude within a company that
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some people would still describe as like, oh, that's a big tanker. But when you compare to
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a company like Nike or Adidas, God, no, we are absolutely, we are able to turn on the dime and
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really shift resources easily, which also at COVID has helped us. So we were able to cut marketing
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budget left and right and put it all into DTC channels and Ecom at a much faster pace than our
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competitors could do. So the passion, the self-cultivation, I think you've got to be a
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nice person because it's really, it's the atmosphere at Puma. We always, maybe if you saw
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the town halls and the quarter results, the 75th birthday videos right now, we're family.
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It's called, we've had ourselves being a Puma family. And that really is something where
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in the media agency world, it's fine. You celebrate together. You go to the pop in London afterwards,
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right? When it comes to brand side, the client side, it's not, I would say it's not really
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expected that you hang out with your colleagues all the time, but at Puma, that's ultimately what
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you do. So it's relatively young crowd, I would say, and bringing in everybody to not just
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celebrations, but actually having fun at work with each other. That is, I think, absolutely,
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it's paramount. Yeah, I think that's a great prerequisite for a company to attract the best
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talent. And aside from all these great things that you get working at Puma, like hanging out
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as a big family and all these learning opportunities, how would you say you guys contribute to society?
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Like what's the greater meaning in working for such a large brand?
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That's a very good question, because you're getting at the Icky Guy, like what's your,
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what you get paid for, right? What you're good at, what you love to do, and what's actually good for
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society. Then the sweet spot would be your Icky Guy, which is something that I need to question
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to a certain degree, because when you ultimately produce something, and shoes, apparel, fitness,
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apparel, is, yes, it needs to be produced, it probably has an impact on the environment, right?
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So it's really, you want to minimize that impact, I think. And this is something that, with our
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sustainability approach at Puma, something we absolutely look after right now. So I'm not
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necessarily saying that apart from providing sports, fitness, apparel for people who want to
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be active or stylish, but we, I think, are really focusing also on people who actually like to do
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sports and soccer, run, train, basketball, you name it. That's the one thing we want to incentivize
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people to do sports, about be living a healthy lifestyle. On the other hand, yes, we do know
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that the production of these goods has an impact, and we are absolutely more or less
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on a faster track, like say, in minimizing this impact in our competition. There's a big
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program that you can see online, 10 out of 10, and we are exceeding regularly our own goals in
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making this brand a more sustainable brand. And that's not even greenwashing. I think we are
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absolutely conscious of the impact that we have. It's just going forward, and especially when you
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look at the consumer that is more conscious of this, you just have to be mindful and do everything
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you can in order to minimize this impact. And then I think we do that. And that's what I'm
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very proud of. And when you look at the Ikigai, when I say, like, oh, is it good for the environment,
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or is it good for the greater good and the society? What's your net impact on that? And for
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Puma, I couldn't really say, but I think if you replace that in the Ikigai, the four pillars, if
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you replace something that, well, do you identify with this? Are you proud of it? That, I think,
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is something that I can say absolutely yes. So there's nothing that I need to be embarrassed
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about. Well, that's good. That's good. No, exactly. I mean, if you work for big oil,
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or if you work for tobacco and alcohol, whatever, it's like, well, what's there? So I think right
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now, yes, this is ultimately, for me, the way I would sort of slightly adjust the Ikigai. So
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like, okay, are you motivated? Are you embarrassed about your employers? No, absolutely not. I see.
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I'm fascinated by how you view your competitors, because this came up quite a few times,
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just now in our interview. So you talked a little bit about Adidas and Nike. How would you compare
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you guys to them? What kind of things that you think you're better than them? And what are the
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things that you think you need to try and catch up to hopefully overtake them?
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Well, I think the one thing that I guess we can do better than them is what I said earlier,
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is like, I think we're much more nimble, we can react much faster to certain trends and changes
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in consumer behavior. That being said, I think where we could do better is actually listening
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to the consumers, not just relax and be like, okay, I'm going to do better. And I think
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we rely on our own gut feelings when it comes to designs and trends. But I think, yeah, especially
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when you have such big companies like Adidas and Nike, I think it's very, let's say, easy for them
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to just, let's say, swamp the market with just marketing money and sign all the teams and players,
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etc. So we have to be very, very, yes, responsible with our limited resources, right? Which again,
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I think makes us, let's say, very, very nimble and say, okay, well, we want to do this, but let's
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say that we can't just spray and pray, you know, we really have to be mindful on where we, what
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nest we put our eggs in. And this is something that I think, yeah, in the midterm, it doesn't
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really sound like a big strategy, right? But it's something that will always be to our advantage.
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So especially when it comes to clients, or let's say the retail, not necessarily the consumer,
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but the retail, and what they demand from us, I think we are in a much better position to
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ultimately have them address their needs, and do not necessarily need to take care of so much
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under like a big e-commerce, all of our flagship stores, etc. Right? No, we can actually go to the
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retail and be again, like, very adaptive to their needs.
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So just lastly, before we end the interview, you mentioned earlier in the interview about
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perhaps in America, that people work more for themselves, their own reputation, whilst in
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Asia, it could be working for the greater good. But the same result is that you work
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for long hours, right? So for yourself, what's, how do you keep yourself motivated? What's the
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meaning of work aside from pay for a paycheck or for your own reputation?
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Well, first of all, the paycheck and the ROI, let's say, right? That I get out of it, I think
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I'm in a very fortunate position that we have flexible work hours. And I think the way you
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paraphrase what I said earlier, sounds rather drastic, like, oh, long hours and everything.
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No, it's more like there's an expectation also that I myself have, right? That I'm not necessarily
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always available, but I just deliver. And this doesn't have to come at like a nine to five or
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nine to eight or something rather than, no, it's like, I can perfectly balance this with, well,
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getting my kids to the doctor or picking them up from school, and then add something later,
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as long as the result is there. And that is something that I don't know if it's just a
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pooma thing or yes, I think it ultimately comes with the senior leadership has in you,
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the trust they have in you, right? Yeah. The freedom they give you. And that I think
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makes it for like a nice, well, I think we can say like work life balance, even though there
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probably is not really such a thing. It's more like, well, as you said, you need the money,
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and you need to deliver. It's more like, ideally at your own terms. Right? And that is what
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a pooma right now after you have you build your network and you have earned the trust.
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You have earned the trust. That is something that I right now enjoy very much. And that is where I
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don't really feel ever stressed. Other than, yeah, sure, there's a budget presentation for next year,
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and I have to work twice as hard. So, but is it stress? No, not necessarily, because I can
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really pick and choose when to travel, where to go, and when to actually put my foot on the gas
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pedal. Right? Yeah. As for the other thing, what I do for self branding is right now, not much,
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to be honest. I think you called because of an event, a Reuters event, where ultimately, I think
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once a year, I set myself up for one, twice a year, I think, that was my goal to get to a conference,
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maybe even speak at a conference. Right? But that's more also like a personal learning curve challenge.
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Get out there, network with people to learn from their experiences. Because I think ultimately,
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when you just talk to your own pooma people, your own agency people, there is the risk that you're
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sort of missing out on a lot of things. And that's where in those marketing forums and conferences,
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I like to get inspired. And I get inspired easily by because there are so many bright people out
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there. It's just mind boggling, to be honest, because you always think like, oh, sure, I've
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figured it out. Chances are you haven't. Or I haven't. Yeah. And then you can learn so much.
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And that's what I said, like the learning curve. For me personally, it needs to be steep at Puma,
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outside Puma. So I need the stimulus from outside. And it's not as much self branding other than
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that I really want to be inspired and learn more. There's so much more to learn.
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Well, it's been a pleasure talking to you, Herman. I wish I could invite you at another time to our